PDA

View Full Version : Winter Stroke.


Miraculix
05-22-2009, 03:15 AM
First off, I like the new update a lot. I love my pet sticking with me at all times now, which lets the pet control panel shine to it's full usefulness. I like the movement speed change, the fights are a lot faster, more intense, chases and scouting around is a lot more dangerous as people can come at you any minute with less time to react... Finally ambush got the casting time reduced... A lot of areas nerfed so no more of that stupid gameplay and more true fighting. Absolutely adore the new trainer. All the spell fixes including cancelation, overriding, effect removal... No more blockfests in wars! All this sounds great and so far all of this is indeed great judging from a few hours of in-game experience.

But one thing is completely out of any sort of logic: Why on earth would you reduce Winter Stroke range? Marksman range has been already compromised with the overall speed boost, giving even less meaning to the range passive, parabolic, and basically anything range involved. Not saying they are completely useless, just less useful now.

One of the reasons marksman was considered a class that uses their range is not only because of the range of their normal hits. It is because (and *mostly* because) their main attacks and CC spells were 0 (weapon) range, thus allowing their use at the maximum range that a marksman can get. Removing this feature from the marksman class makes them basically a class that can shoot normals from 35+ meters but can only be of any serious concern when they reach 30-25 meters. This of course, completely undermines a marksman's role in the game.

What's more, Staff Mastery remains the same. The more you nerf a marksman, the less reason there is to choose that class as the ranged dps class when Staff Mastery remains the way it is. Right now, SM mages out-DPS a marksman, at pretty much the same range. At least they had no CC at that range. Now, marksmen lost one of their main CC spells at their intended playing range. Why?

Please, before I ask for reverting this change, give us an answer to "why". Although I think it is a bad decision no matter the reason and should be reverted anyway, I think all marksmen deserve to know at least the reason for this...

_Enio_
05-22-2009, 06:51 AM
Right now, SM mages out-DPS a marksman, at pretty much the same range. At least they had no CC at that range.

I consider Terror as a CC.

Btt, i was really confused when i read that change. The only idea i can see behind this is giving the hunter a bigger role in stopping fleeing enemies since they now have the biggest ranged "snare". Still i dont see why it was needed, it was already like this as hunters just have the speed to follow the fleeing ones.

Please put light on that matter.

Range 25 for Freeze on runners.. now lightning arrow is more effective.. pff

backe
05-22-2009, 07:21 AM
...Good stuff and things...
Yup...all of this. Please revoke this TOTALLY unnecessary "fix" to winter stroke. its completely uncalled for and as Miraculix says, only serves to bolster the already overpowered staff mastery skill book.

Edit:
"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to anyone on the damn forums again."
I'm bloody sick of it...people on the goddamn forum should be rewarded for good posts, not told this crap....

Anpu
05-22-2009, 09:23 AM
Chilko was avoiding yesterday my question on Horus 3 times:
"Can you give me the one simple good reason why Winter Stroke range is cut and how is that more in priority than insane SM hits for a balance?"

Awesome communication with community, by avoiding it. Also avoiding answering on forums too. Really nice job. And for every question on Spanish forum part, you have time to answer. I m not blind.

monktbd
05-22-2009, 01:50 PM
My guess is that they wanted winterstroke to be a cc spell for not coming near the marks but not for not running away from the marks.
They maybe want marks to have high range but be really deadly at medium range i.e. 20-25 range.

That is fine I think but without a nerf to SM it is unbalanced in comparison.
As many I would have preferred nerf to SM than a nerf to winter stroke (even though my conj is not lvl 50 yet :D).

Miraculix
05-22-2009, 02:06 PM
My guess is that they wanted winterstroke to be a cc spell for not coming near the marks but not for not running away from the marks.


You mean like a mage already can do with Pricking Ivy, Will Domain, Mind Push, Static Field, Time Master, Freeze(wlocks) ? But only, more spells and better effects than the marksman for that purpose?


They maybe want marks to have high range but be really deadly at medium range i.e. 20-25 range.


You mean like an SM mage, with Arcane Projection at range 35 and all his spells + zarkit at medium range? But only, better spells at medium range and higher damage at max range than the marksman for that purpose?

It Just Doesn't Make Sense.

DkySven
05-22-2009, 02:31 PM
I agree, the old winter stroke was fine, I never had too much problems with it.

Adrian
05-22-2009, 02:36 PM
Hi Community,

Winter Stroke was being used by marksmen to stop enemies from casting skills but specially to avoid an enemy from escaping. This is the role of the hunter, and to interrupt casting the marksman already has Burst of Wind.

The marksman was being able to interrupt twice a warlock's cast and also dealing damage.

This balance stage was aimed to distinguish every sub-class role, but there's a lot of work still to be done.

Regards,

fluffy_muffin
05-22-2009, 02:39 PM
Hi Community,

Winter Stroke was being used by marksmen to stop enemies from casting skills but specially to avoid an enemy from escaping. This is the role of the hunter, and to interrupt casting the marksman already has Burst of Wind.

But if enemy is barb with onsl or other hunter then... wtf? and fight is 1vs1 or 2vs2 or something, and there is no hunter in group :D
Really what was wrong with old Winter stroke?

Adrian
05-22-2009, 02:45 PM
But if enemy is barb with onsl or other hunter then... wtf? and fight is 1vs1 or 2vs2 or something, and there is no hunter in group :D
Really what was wrong with old Winter stroke?

Then it means that the hunter maybe needs more tools to stop the enemy from escaping. Ensnaring Arrow is one of them and as I said, there's more balance stages to come.

Regards,

Mattdoesrock
05-22-2009, 02:54 PM
Hi Community,

Winter Stroke was being used by marksmen to stop enemies from casting skills but specially to avoid an enemy from escaping. This is the role of the hunter, and to interrupt casting the marksman already has Burst of Wind.

The marksman was being able to interrupt twice a warlock's cast and also dealing damage.

Great.

Just fantastic.

So let me get this right... Everytime that I need to use Winter Stroke at it's PROPER range, e.g. combined with parabolic, I need a hunter with me?

This is complete and utter bullshit.

Also, a Marks job is to deal damage, right? Well Barbs do that. Lets get rid of Marks.

It's Balance! Don't you see!?!?!

This balance stage was aimed to distinguish every sub-class role, but there's a lot of work still to be done.

Clearly.

Maybe listening to our thoughts about this spell is a good start.

_dracus_
05-22-2009, 03:04 PM
As I said previously: "One should never remove range of marks". If you don't want winter stroke to be used as an interruptor/stoper skill then change the skill entirely make something new (and fun maybe).

Umaril
05-22-2009, 03:13 PM
Ensnaring only slows people partly, often you it is used several times before you can even get near enough to try cast ambush, even then its resisted often.
Hunting with Namus yesterday he used it in a chase 4 times 3 of which it was resisted.
If Hunters are ment to slow people down then give them more long range stopping spells, Ambush and Ensnare dont cut it in my eyes. but still...

Clearly NGD have differant ideas about the class's jobs than the players do. Many times the only reason that we catch people is because of a mark being able to freeze them from a distance. And so what if they have 2 spells to cancel a warlock? I have Feint and Trip which can easily do the same, shall we "fix" those as well?

Miraculix
05-22-2009, 03:23 PM
This balance stage was aimed to distinguish every sub-class role, but there's a lot of work still to be done.

Was it the intended role of the mage *class* (not sub-class) to be the top ranged-dps class in the game? And if not, then was the distinction of the "stop the runner" sub-class really more important than the distinction of the ranged-dps class?

Seriously now.

-Edge-
05-22-2009, 03:29 PM
Hi Community,

Winter Stroke was being used by marksmen to stop enemies from casting skills but specially to avoid an enemy from escaping. This is the role of the hunter, and to interrupt casting the marksman already has Burst of Wind.

The marksman was being able to interrupt twice a warlock's cast and also dealing damage.

So it was nerfed because it was stopping people from escaping? What is the point then? When the target is frozen were we supposed to dance around them and wait till they unfreeze?

And Interruption is used by every class, any class can knock and stun the target.

How about Dizzy? It completely interrupts everything until the dizzy duration runs out.

Lower the mana cost on Burst of Wind maybe then. You nerf things but always come too late to compensate things for something. Oh those poor warlocks... not like they did not have windwall,

Anpu
05-22-2009, 04:50 PM
Almost every class is able to try stop running enemy somehow with their range 0 (Sultar, Ensnaring) or by using full speed (Onsl+Spring) combined with Kick, Feint, immobilize effect. Only hunter can with much more probability, actually not only try, but CATCH target (passive speed, Ensnaring 0 etc).

You did following: gave us possibility to dizzy enemy from max range, so he can pull even more back and go out of max range (which is by the way limited with buff duration).

So, we dizzy enemy and he cannot cast but be attacked. BY WHO? Marksman is the only class that can shoot in such a long distance and with buff duration limit. Others can just WATCH. So, enemy can pull back more in safety (out of max limited range), like nothing happened. Little scratched from joke of damage and thats it.

Winter stroke range 0 was enabling marksman to stop enemy for limited duration from any casting and also frozen enemy was invulnerable and cant move. That gave chance other classes who DO NOT have high range as marksman, to put target in their range. Just to put, not to attack till the end of spell duration. I ll remind you, same thing has Warlock, range 0 Sultar terror, making area knock down, giving chance also to his allies to set knocked group in their range (because not all can shoot from range 0, and we have also warrior classes....).

This is not balance, this is, my dear community manager, big bullshit as many have also told you.

kamax
05-22-2009, 04:59 PM
I don't see you complain again after kailer give you the answer. Marks are strong enough atm, they don't need to freeze people with a very high range.

If you want to catch mages you can still do it.... With the new 20% it's more difficult for locks to catch you when you run away.

And i don't see why yuo compare this with SM, a conju with it make me ~450dmg, you make me +500normal hit and less that 1s after 900/1000 ,without DS....

_Enio_
05-22-2009, 05:30 PM
..
Winter stroke range 0 was enabling marksman to stop enemy for limited duration from any casting and also frozen enemy was invulnerable and cant move. That gave chance other classes who DO NOT have high range as marksman, to put target in their range. Just to put, not to attack till the end of spell duration. I ll remind you, same thing has Warlock, range 0 Sultar terror, making area knock down, giving chance also to his allies to set knocked group in their range (because not all can shoot from range 0, and we have also warrior classes....).
...


Well said, exactly this got lost now.

When you (Kailer) say marks had 2 ways to break casts of locks you obviously mean, 2 ways to break sultar as its the only one which has range 30+. If you think that needed a balance, i dont. and for other casts ranged <30 its still the same..

e30ernest
05-22-2009, 06:08 PM
The marksman was being able to interrupt twice a warlock's cast and also dealing damage.

This balance stage was aimed to distinguish every sub-class role, but there's a lot of work still to be done.

Regards,

Umm Kailer, my lock has never had a Terror cast interrupted by a marks... EVER! The only things that has interrupted my Terror casts have been my target moving out of range (cause I cast from the edge of my range) or due to another lock outcasting me (I have crap items). Does NGD want war to be relegated to nothing but AREA SPAMMING?

Adrian
05-22-2009, 07:21 PM
I didn't say anything about Terror of Sultar. I mentioned that marksmen could cancel any cast or just get him "out of business" quickly.

Marksmen should be dangerous when you get into their range, but when you decide to go out of that range they shouldn't be able to maintain you in it easily. And with hunters, they should be able to keep you within their range or just "deceive" you by appearing out of the blue, dealing very variable damages (pets, skills, normal hits) but faster.

So, I repeat, we have a lot of work to do. We are on our track and also hope that you understand that we need to focus on sub-class roles. It's an RvR game!

Regards,

Umaril
05-22-2009, 07:22 PM
Any hunter that camos goes into a enemy group and trys to kill someone in war has roughy 3 seconds to live :)

Mattdoesrock
05-22-2009, 09:02 PM
So, I repeat, we have a lot of work to do.

Yes you do.

We are on our track and also hope that you understand that we need to focus on sub-class roles.

All I understand is that NGD made an unwanted and unasked for, change that the community, who play and PAY for the game, hate.

-Edge-
05-22-2009, 09:29 PM
So, I repeat, we have a lot of work to do. We are on our track and also hope that you understand that we need to focus on sub-class roles. It's an RvR game!

Go nuts,

But you are giving yourself more work with each thing you ignore. If NGD really wanted to they could remove most of the bugs, missing quests, and gameplay problems in this game in a weeks time. (You seem to have plenty of time to work on other projects, and create totally new concepts, but fixing things seems like impossible from you) But no, instead we get more content updates, which I have nothing against, but if you would put a whole update for the sake of fixing those things, it would be better.

And to be honest I prefer a giant bug removing update, over some new NG3D engine anyday, all you are doing right now is painting over the problem, sweeping it all under the rug. But its still there.

Keep feeding us candy to calm us down, but it won't last long. Thats how I feel anyway,

platyna
05-22-2009, 09:39 PM
Not to be a meanie, but archers are quite overpowered (marks less, rather hunters).

And when there are suggestions about improving warriors and mages you are yelling that "it is nonsense, it is fine as is, everything here is made for a reason - you just don't know how to play".

And now when one spell got nerfed (not that much at all comparing to eg. Mana Communiton :D) you are "bitching".

Regards.

Leg_The_Marks
05-22-2009, 09:45 PM
U know what i believe? I believe that marks should have a place in forts. somewhere up so they can deal theyr damage and stay only there, why should a marksmen try to hunt? Thar is a hunters job. Why should a marksmen tank? That is a knights task. Why should a marksmen deal a lot of damage? Thats in the barbs description. Why should a marks stop an enemy? A worlock can stop an army. Why should a marksmen help the team mates? A conju can do that. SO WAT SHOULD A MARKSMEN DO??????????

platyna
05-22-2009, 09:54 PM
As far as I have underestood marksmen are to shoot and to reach moving targets, the enemy from the distance, that's why there are usualy 2 marksmen guards on forts (of course hunter can do that too, however they has lower dmg). So no need for marks to have string freezing spell at all.

Regards.

fluffy_muffin
05-22-2009, 09:55 PM
Not to be a meanie, but archers are quite overpowered (marks less, rather hunters).

Fluffy blinks. Turn back and asks: Why?
You are conj right? And it is your only char?

Miraculix
05-22-2009, 09:58 PM
I didn't say anything about Terror of Sultar. I mentioned that marksmen could cancel any cast or just get him "out of business" quickly.

Marksmen should be dangerous when you get into their range, but when you decide to go out of that range they shouldn't be able to maintain you in it easily. And with hunters, they should be able to keep you within their range or just "deceive" you by appearing out of the blue, dealing very variable damages (pets, skills, normal hits) but faster.

So, I repeat, we have a lot of work to do. We are on our track and also hope that you understand that we need to focus on sub-class roles. It's an RvR game!

Regards,

How is Staff Mastery lower in priority to fix than Winter Stroke? Explain me that PLEASE.

DkySven
05-22-2009, 10:01 PM
Not to be a meanie, but archers are quite overpowered (marks less, rather hunters).

And when there are suggestions about improving warriors and mages you are yelling that "it is nonsense, it is fine as is, everything here is made for a reason - you just don't know how to play".

And now when one spell got nerfed (not that much at all comparing to eg. Mana Communiton :D) you are "bitching".

Regards.

Please explain(in a different topic) why archers are overpowered.

_Enio_
05-22-2009, 10:23 PM
Please explain(in a different topic) why archers are overpowered.


[dont forget to move it to the Inn too]

Miraculix
05-23-2009, 12:10 AM
[dont forget to move it to the Inn too]


(and put [spam] tag)

RuLeZ
05-23-2009, 09:01 AM
Hi Community,

Winter Stroke was being used by marksmen to stop enemies from casting skills but specially to avoid an enemy from escaping. This is the role of the hunter, and to interrupt casting the marksman already has Burst of Wind.

The marksman was being able to interrupt twice a warlock's cast and also dealing damage.

This balance stage was aimed to distinguish every sub-class role, but there's a lot of work still to be done.

Regards,
Ok.
If i am correct, conju's job is to support and boost rest army. Since when are they designed to hit ~450 normals + ~300 zarkit in range of 30 ?
That means that they are between Marks and Hunter in dmg and range... Is that their role ? Cause if it is, then dam... i made wrong decision and should grind conju! \o/

platyna
05-23-2009, 11:54 AM
Ok.
If i am correct, conju's job is to support and boost rest army.


Exactly what I thought by chosing the conju. ;-)


Since when are they designed to hit ~450 normals + ~300 zarkit in range of 30 ?
That means that they are between Marks and Hunter in dmg and range... Is that their role ? Cause if it is, then dam... i made wrong decision and should grind conju! \o/

Yep, they are not. So I am astonished by cutting off defence and support skills and leaving damaging skills, while damaging skills should be cut off in exchange of defensive and supporting ones.

Regards.

Orimae
06-01-2009, 05:06 PM
U know what i believe? I believe that marks should have a place in forts. somewhere up so they can deal theyr damage and stay only there, why should a marksmen try to hunt? Thar is a hunters job. Why should a marksmen tank? That is a knights task. Why should a marksmen deal a lot of damage? Thats in the barbs description. Why should a marks stop an enemy? A worlock can stop an army. Why should a marksmen help the team mates? A conju can do that. SO WAT SHOULD A MARKSMEN DO??????????


I stood and fed mana one night in Aggers, to Rhadamanthus and Bo, two of our marksmen...they were on the top of aggers tower..anything came in their range, it got smited...its where they should be..in towers, they have almost no decent protection spells, so need to stay at range and do their job, which is from the top of towers etc...its the hunters with their shorter range should be on the outside rims of the forts, and if a marks cant freeze from their maximum range..what is the point? they freeze, hunters, locks get ready , pick the frozen target, and when ready, kill it dead,(barbs and knights are areaing the crap out of anything that makes it to the door) with two working together (or more), most armies should have a harder time getting back forts, making it more fun for all involved...and give the marksman back thier place in the warzone...longer wars are better..so please, give back marksmen thier 0 range winter stroke....:tsk_tsk:



Not to be a meanie, but archers are quite overpowered (marks less, rather hunters)..

And as for this...(going off topic i know, but wanted to answer this)i have a lvl 50 conju and a lvl 45 hunter...my conju is way more over powered than my hunter.. my normal hit...roughly 150, pet hits, roughly 250...no spells to buff my bow and make it more powerful... conju can stack buff and hit for over 300 with full SM and the zarkit does 350...two or three attack spells on hunter that are really any use for dealing damage, conju has bettle swarm, mana burn, prickling ivy arcanae strike, list goes on..so yeah, level a hunter and then tell us they are overpowered, more so that a conju -.-


Bring back winterstroke 0 range \o/

Angelwinged_Devil
06-01-2009, 11:24 PM
but you made a fine spell pretty useless? why would any marksman want to freeze his target at range 25? It doesn't make sense and this just means you screwed up.

lala110593
06-01-2009, 11:52 PM
howd does any NGD staff member have the sense of talking about "balance" and nerfing for "balance" when there are support classes running around doing twice the dmg of damge classes (conju vs. Marks), seriously you speak of balance? where is the balance in that? explain that? you say marks whas taking role of hunter? what about conjus and locks taking roles of marks, hmmmmm....?


-glulose

Umaril
06-02-2009, 06:18 PM
This isnt ment to be about marks vs SM we have 50 threads for that elsewere :)

I do think Winters should be changed back, but it wont be, when do NGD ever go back on a change?

Last update "nerfed" Balestra, Ribs Breaker, MC, most areas, Winters, and "buffed" MoD by using some idiot logic to say its not a "positive" effect.

Personaly I dont realy like any of this, Im used to not having so much Mana and am still uncertain wether I like having to ration mana more, but the rest of the changes to powers were uncalled for and totaly stupid. Ruining yet more of a ever shrinking list of powers worth using,

I was talking with 2 other barbs the other day and it turned out we were all using near as the exact same setup (give or take 1/2 points) So are we ment to all be clones now?

Angelwinged_Devil
06-02-2009, 06:31 PM
I do think Winters should be changed back, but it wont be, when do NGD ever go back on a change?

a few times when people said they were going to quit
fatique
slowing down backpedal speed

I was talking with 2 other barbs the other day and it turned out we were all using near as the exact same setup (give or take 1/2 points) So are we ment to all be clones now?

society always wanted you to be sheep :p

Umaril
06-02-2009, 06:40 PM
Backpedal ill give you :P

But Fatiuge was after a long long time, quite a while after we stoped making threads and kinda just accepted it, So I dont think that was anything to do with threads like these :P

Ya know, ones full of good arguments and reasons for change.

Angelwinged_Devil
06-02-2009, 07:05 PM
Backpedal ill give you :P

But Fatiuge was after a long long time, quite a while after we stoped making threads and kinda just accepted it, So I dont think that was anything to do with threads like these :P

Ya know, ones full of good arguments and reasons for change.

hey there are good arguments in this thread too, let me give you another one

I am markzman and I pwn ppl wth winta stroke (right hand of course) so plz give it range 0 again so I can ues it on mah self

fatique was after a long time but it was still removed :D

Umaril
06-02-2009, 07:19 PM
I am markzman and I pwn ppl wth winta stroke (right hand of course) so plz give it range 0 again so I can ues it on mah self

Ill assume your kidding :P

Since you cant realy say "SM is fine as is and not overpowered in any way, lets leave it as is so mages can grind faster than everyone else"

And also call range 0 on Winters Overpowered. Can you?

dani-o
06-02-2009, 07:50 PM
I do think Winters should be changed back, but it wont be, when do NGD ever go back on a change?

when they make that "wild spirit" only gave 10% at lvl 5

when they make that onslaught effects only wears off with an "effective attack"

when they said that SoW was find as it was and taht it would not receive any changes.

when they make that camo cast cancell with evaded and resisted attacks after said that only "effectives" attack would cancell it.

lala110593
06-02-2009, 11:08 PM
This isnt ment to be about marks vs SM we have 50 threads for that elsewere :)

I do think Winters should be changed back, but it wont be, when do NGD ever go back on a change?

Last update "nerfed" Balestra, Ribs Breaker, MC, most areas, Winters, and "buffed" MoD by using some idiot logic to say its not a "positive" effect.

Personaly I dont realy like any of this, Im used to not having so much Mana and am still uncertain wether I like having to ration mana more, but the rest of the changes to powers were uncalled for and totaly stupid. Ruining yet more of a ever shrinking list of powers worth using,

I was talking with 2 other barbs the other day and it turned out we were all using near as the exact same setup (give or take 1/2 points) So are we ment to all be clones now?

i was responding to the Dev's post who brought up the issue of balance....


-glulose

Domino_
06-03-2009, 01:53 PM
Hi Community,

Winter Stroke was being used by marksmen to stop enemies from casting skills but specially to avoid an enemy from escaping. This is the role of the hunter, and to interrupt casting the marksman already has Burst of Wind.

The marksman was being able to interrupt twice a warlock's cast and also dealing damage.

This balance stage was aimed to distinguish every sub-class role, but there's a lot of work still to be done.

Regards,

Winter stroke is still mainly used to catch escaping enemy.....

And to interrupt casting - No change except sultar and summon lightning which are range 0 !!!


Marksmen should be dangerous when you get into their range, but when you decide to go out of that range they shouldn't be able to maintain you in it easily

Maintain in range is based more on mobility...

Conclusion, there was no need to nerf this skill !!!

KnuckOne
06-03-2009, 09:24 PM
Lower the mana cost on Burst of Wind maybe then.
I guess i met quality, non whining, creative warlocks...

If you cast burst of wind and the warlock run away, you'll need mobility to hit and run without getting out of range and will clearly get into warlock range.

Worst, once burst of wind is over, they'll knock you at 34.5 with terror because we've no more range 0 skills allowing us to stop that bullshit. Next move, warlock freeze marks and come close. Goodbye DS and strategic. At this step, marks is just a ninja hunter, offensively and defensively.

I found a counter to this by using sotw with dirty fighting, but you still need to do the damage before sotw wears off ; otherwise you're done.

The situation is like, let's say, a barb using unstoppable madness and berserk to fight a hunter - quite stupid ^^