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Old 07-04-2009, 12:23 AM   #11
Nightchill
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chilko
Our idea was that a conjurer would have to decide to specialize on just support or have some extra damage. Leveling a support conjurer would be very hard, and they would be greatly appreciated for their role... now people just change setups and found ways to either do both or just switch depending on war/pvp/group/lvlng configs.
i hope that you're not thinking of removing /reset_powers. that'd basically spawn 1-2 common builds for each class and kill all the diversity (and lower the skill ceiling required to get to play good). even now that lots of spells begin to take shape of either l5 or it's useless i'm afraid that it will lead to having a common build everyone will use. without reset_powers it's sure to happen since everyone would go for a safe variant and no one would dare to experiment and try finding something new.
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Old 07-04-2009, 12:38 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightchill View Post
i hope that you're not thinking of removing /reset_powers. that'd basically spawn 1-2 common builds for each class and kill all the diversity (and lower the skill ceiling required to get to play good). even now that lots of spells begin to take shape of either l5 or it's useless i'm afraid that it will lead to having a common build everyone will use. without reset_powers it's sure to happen since everyone would go for a safe variant and no one would dare to experiment and try finding something new.
We said this before, we won't remove reset powers... even when i would love to from day one (balancing would be much easier!!! )

the only thing that i've been thinking about reseting lately is the servers! (joke)



PS: we have this funny idea at the office... we will install a BIG RED BUTTON in my desk that just deletes all of Regnum and shuts down everything. Then, we will install a webcam showing just that button and the distance of my hand to it. Believe me this past two days my hand would have been almost on top of the button like every second!
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Old 07-04-2009, 12:45 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chilko View Post
PS: we have this funny idea at the office... we will install a BIG RED BUTTON in my desk that just deletes all of Regnum and shuts down everything. Then, we will install a webcam showing just that button and the distance of my hand to it. Believe me this past two days my hand would have been almost on top of the button like every second!
sounds to me you guys need some sedatives
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Old 07-04-2009, 12:49 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chilko View Post
....(first post)

This shines light upon a lot of the motivation behind some of the changes I have been seeing. I think it does help spell out a clearer understanding of direction in RO. First, let me give out some praise as I know you guys cannot please EVERYONE with updates:

1. Thank you for trying to make warriors' skills less cumbersome and much more usable. They aren't perfect yet but you've definitely improved them significantly (for the most part).

2. Thank you for working hard on the positional lag issue. I'll have to test on Amun again as I hear it is being worked on still, but from what I've seen it's better (still some room for improvement though).

3. Socketed items. Thank you! More customization for characters and their gear is great!

4. The /reset_powers command is the best thing since the discovery of fire!

5. NATIVE LINUX CLIENT - BEST IDEA EVER


THANK YOU for all of your hard work NGD. However I do feel that it's a bit stifling in your desired direction of game balance via limiting and narrowing class abilities instead of letting players build their characters to their style of play or desired tactical direction.

By corralling player's characters into a certain pigeon-hole as per the direction of the design team, the beloved variety of gameplay and new "builds" so many characters love to experiment with shall go right out the window.

People like having a free choice of several good character roles per class, but rightfully then resist having that freedom slowly squeezed out into a narrow path that not everyone may want to follow. Fort battles and invasions are won or lost by the players and their own in-game coordination/communication/tactics. They shouldn't be forced to stick to one "format" of warfare only if they want to win. Such methodology will become monotonous, tedious and boring.

What really caught me with RO (aside from Native Linux support) is, since I started playing in 1.04, was the dynamic ability for each class to potentially adapt to any roles that the user could, thus maximizing the variety of gameplay. Hamstringing classes bit by bit to corral them into a specific role makes ANY game less fun, not more. If every knight used the same skillset and fought using the same tactics (because they became the only effective setup), they would be predictable and robotic.

While maintaining both game and character balance is ALWAYS essential (and I understand you guys are constantly wracking your brains on this issue to get it right), please try to take into consideration the ability of players to CHOOSE the role for their character.

Non-linear gameplay is a huge plus, as open-ended leveling/character-building/RvR-warfare/PvP-warfare is much more desired than cookie-cutter "one-size-fits all" character classes and warfare layouts.


Over the years, RPG's have evolved from "You have 1 character to choose from, his name is xxxxx and you cannot change it, he looks like this, he has x number of abilities and you're stuck with them since you have no say in the direction of his advancement" to "You can pretty much pick whomever you want, name whatever you want, pick from a large assortment of skills/spells/items and configure them as you see fit and play in the manner in which best suits your style."

Please, do not devolve that trend of more freedom/options of gameplay toward less. Balance can yet be obtained without constantly cutting everything back left and right (in my humble opinion, of course). I still see glimmers of hope as several changes in the update come at the behest of the players. So you ARE listening, and we appreciate that.

And again, NGD cannot make everyone happy; human-nature dictates that this is a sheer impossibility. But from a pure business-capitalist perspective, the one rule in any business-client relationship is "don't alienate the client or he'll spend his money elsewhere."

NGD/RO is the business; the players are the clients. It's a love/hate give/take relationship and everyone should try to have at least a modicum of civility in their comments. Airing of grievances and constructive criticism should not be stifled or re-directed but acknowledged and clarified, as was done with the original post of this thread (again, thank you for taking the time to communicate that to us).

These forums, IMO, are not just a "hang out" for off-realm players to flame each other. Mostly, I think it should be used to hash out any mis-communications between players and/or the staff. Because, hey, in the end, we're all on the same side. We want to see Regnum Succeed and be a game that we will love and play for years.

Let's not get into a flame-war of hate-filled vitriol as seen in other threads.
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Old 07-04-2009, 12:51 AM   #15
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Thank you for your long answer.
I do not aprove of the mocking tone concerning my commentary on archers fighting mages. Meeting an argument about speed and range with balance by increasing the cooldown of a spell in the shortbows (=short range) tree for me shows a certain loss of overview.

I agree that stone-paper-scissor wont work, cant work since theres already 6 classes to start with. What is your concept then? What is the situation you plan to balance? You opened this thread, staying as vague as you are doing renders it pointless.

Is balance to be understood entirely in the frame of fort wars? If so, do you think that the majority of the in-game time is currently spent in fort wars? Have you made a poll to find this out, or maybe is it your personal experience of playing it a lot of time? My point is: Are you convinced that the situation you are trying to bring into balance is the situation that covers most of the playing time; ergo the situation that should be prioritized in balance.

To your concluding sentence: Maybe you are trying to offer more opportunities to certain classes. The consequences of your decisions are, however, the opposite. Spells that cannot be used at will of the caster anymore ("target is not wounded" --> "you are only allowed to use that spell when we say so"), removing an opportunity. Nerfing sanctuary also changes the weight of the whole sorcery tree, you will see this spell a lot less. In fact, you will see even less people using it successfully. The formerly ample spectrum of playable setups will be reduced.
Do you really think that diversity will be the result of the changes you did to conjurers in the past updates?

I am discussing on the base of the conjurer skills, because those i do know best. However, reread your own changelogs from the past months. Make a list of skills which got increased power (be it damage, some combat control effect, in general just higher numbers or whatever). Compare it to the number of skills that have been nerfed. Assuming that this is a measure of "available opportunities" (a positive change opening one, a negative change closing one), what would the result be?
Or check one of the (community-based) trainers allowing you to store skill setups. Do a little statistical analysis on skill use after update steps of the game. Has the spectrum of playable (or rather: played) configurations increased? Would this fit your definition of "opportunities"?
From my experience discussing these issues with other people, both analyses will yield the same result, a reduction of variety in setups, hence "opportunities".

Z.
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Old 07-04-2009, 12:51 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chilko View Post
We will slow down the amount of changes in the future so we will have time to talk and discuss more about those changes to come.
Im really really trying to be fair here, and i realize that you are a small team and that it is a hell of a lot of work to do what you do in this amount of time, but it seems that there are things that we comment upon, see it ignored, bitch about, see it ignored, and finally get hostile about. I really really really hope that you will in fact take the time to speak to us about all of the proposed updates and ask for our feedback before you even go to code, i truly believe that this will save everyone stress and make the entire experience far more enjoyable for everyone involved.

Have you considered the idea of letting a few hardcore players help code things in the game, im sure you could find a huge number of people willing to help out pro bono to make this game even better than it is. Likely it is a huge legal mess to do something like that, but really, RPG players are geeks, we love getting into the nuts and bolts of things like this, and the linux community in particular adores being able to add their own input to things like this.


Final thoughts:

On communication with the players:

This is what we as a community want, what you as developers need to do, and what Regnum as a game MUST do it if wants to be financially viable, not to mention a fun game to play. Regnum is better than WoW, and its the relationship between the players and the developers that make it that way.

Edit: Indeed, thanks for at least bringing some functionality to warrior skills, and making wind wall less attractive so i dont really feel the need to skill it up...id rather spend the points elsewhere anyways, but felt it was too vital to miss out on (not anymore without block....got any DB for me to leech off of knights? ). There are a lot of really great changes in this update, and perhaps i failed to give credit where credit was do, for that i am sorry, warriors working again, great, new positional code, well its still a hell of a lot better than it was, but im confident thatthe rest of the bugs will be worked out eventually, i can at least PLAY my warriors now.

I do appreciate the bit of clarification that was done as well, at least i can catch a glimpse of the picture that you guys are seeing, so thanks for that as well.

On another note, please please please, dont force us to use strafe, i hate it. i like mouse look for the most part, but strafe is rough, especially playing mage whehn you have 3 pages full of spells to try and get at very quickly, all the while remembering to F1 to your 'home spell bar" after each less used spell is cast.
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Old 07-04-2009, 01:11 AM   #17
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I know that some of you may think that we are just trying to minimize variation between players so they stick to the class "mold"

We are not trying to do that... we want to make all powers more usable and provide more variety...

as an example, sanctuary can be greatly enhanced by insight... so if you want to use sanctuary in ways as you where using it before, you may just use insight (trading off for another spell maybe?)

Anyway, Regnum is still a class based game, and it was meant like that to make people cooperate, we always knew that we did not have time to make a great PVE experience or the knowledge to make a the best and most balanced spells out there. But, social gaming through player cooperation generates much more engagement than any kind of single player focused experience.

PS: We love player driven experiences and allowing for maximum customization and variation... Our next game will probably not be class based at all (if we survive Regnum that is)
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Old 07-04-2009, 01:12 AM   #18
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I don't mean to bring the tone of the thread down again, but I have an idea. If hunters weren't meant to be killing machines, then lower the level of pet they can tame. Instead of a blue mob, make it so that only green mobs can be tamed. I play a hunter as my main and I strongly dislike having a pet. And Chilko spoke of nerfing a bow spell (dual shot), but why nerf that when you can nerf the pet. Nerfing the bow takes away the diversity of the class and forces everyone into the cookie-cutter hunter with a troll setup. I'm not the only one who feels like NGD is forcing us that way.

I agree that the new movement system will take some getting used to but I think for the most part NGD has the right idea. But I just don't want to see classes (especially mine ) forced into a mold.

Dale

Edit: Chilko sort of addressed this before I could finish posting.
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Last edited by Vythica; 07-04-2009 at 01:13 AM. Reason: Chilko is a fast mofo.
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Old 07-04-2009, 01:12 AM   #19
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As usual, thanks a lot for the communication. I value it.
I like the balance vision you set up, I really do...

But what you did to the movement system seems just like abandoning something that made Regnum unique among the RvR games.
We had (have) an unique movement system that most players liked once they got used to it, and this was one thing defining Regnum.

To me, the development of Regnum could be ilustrated like an onion with several layers.
In the middle, you have what I once defined as Regnum: The movement, the RvR action made up by players, the freedom, the storylines, the characters, the balance, etc.

Then you have the premium layer with premium items.

After this comes the outer layer, made up by functions like invasions, magnanite weapons, and other things that seems copied from other games to attract more users to Regnum.

In this update, you're about to take away one of the core features of Regnum, leaving less of the core unchanged and I am afraid this will continue until Regnum is just a shell, another MMORPG without its own unique identity.

I feel that, instead of working to polish the game by adding more features from other games you should work on fine tuning and polishing your own unique things.
The revamps of the initiation areas are stunning, and I just wish that instead for updates like the latest 6, the whole Regnum world could have been revamped with RvR action in mind that would still have improved the quality of the game.
A bigger, more living world with obstacles useful in war.

Another problem is that all new patches seems to focus on RvE, realm vs environment.
Also, the indivudual player is neither rewarded or important in the new mechanics like invasions.
Also, the players of Regnum wants fast paced and tactical action.

Just look at the everlasting bridge fights we have nowadays.
Why do you think they occur?

It's the last escape from the boredom of invasions, since invasions doesn't reward good fighting - instead it rewards big numbers, a lot of running and staying inside the defensive structures for a longer period of time, creating the RvE scenarios.

The superbosses and the dragons are exactly the same.
It's all about manpower and spell spamming, and once again the individual player is not valued.

So, I wouldn't say it's only this update causing these reactions for me.
It's the whole direction Regnum is heading in general.

I understand that you need to do this in order to earn income, but I just wish that instead of adding new features to steal users from other games you could have created a quality game that people don't just play as a worthy alternative to another game (which is more and more becomming the case) but as a totally awesome standalone game.

Thanks

PS. I could never enjoy another MMORPG after playing Regnum, because compared to the Regnum I once knew all other MMORPG's feels static and dull. Good job on this one.
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Old 07-04-2009, 01:17 AM   #20
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from reading the post i see how you want to turn regnum into.

while most say your trying to turn the game a generic version of every other game. yet in some situations being the same is good.

while someone said that theres a good balance between warriors/archers/mages

that isnt the case in most servers while on horus

i have seen syrtis holding samal 15 syrtis and about 15 ignis
for syrtis there was about 12 archers/mages in our group and 3 warriors

while ignis held about 9 mages 4 archers and about 3 warriors

basicly the scenario of this fight was both sides taking potshots at each other for about 30 minutes while warriors sat in the fort or gave onslaught and owth's to there allies (Pretty Dam Boring for Warriors)

now ideas that could improve difficulty to grinding for mages/archers could be to simply add either more ranged mobs or Allowing Mobs a Alternative method to attack (Example) cyclops has a can throw a Projectile Bugs can use a poison (Dot) Wasps and such can shoot there stinger or something

While it might be lame it adds a bit of difficulty to rangers grind.

.............................................

Conjur's Sanctuary since like you said it's not supose to be a getaway spell add a 1.5/2.0 second casting time
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