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Old 01-29-2012, 06:23 PM   #1
Jimaklass
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Default "Masters of spellcasting" failure: What if certain spells were warlock powers

In this thread i attempt a "warlock-isation" of certain popular powers that belong to the non-mage classes. Most things may also apply for conjurers but for sake of simplicity i will refer to "warlocks" instead of "mages". Having played myself 4 out of the 6 game's classes (3.5 actually, my knight is still low lvl :P), it was hard not to notice the spellcasting ability imbalance between them. To put it simply: Mages are by far the worst casters and they absolutely need a spellcasting buff in order to coop with the rest of the classes. Mages should be *at least* equals at spellcasting ability with the other classes and their spell casting buff (Arcane Devotion) should give them an edge over non mage classes. Making my point more clear, this is how some spells would look like if they were warlock powers:
  • There would be no instant powers. On top of that, all instant defensive powers would have a considerable casting time (close to 2 sec)
  • There would be no passive powers for dmg boost (warlocks don't have passive cs boost)
  • Ambush would cost about 2.5x mana compared to it's current cost (compared to Will Domain)
  • Stunning Fist would have a casting time of 1 or 1.5 sec
  • Distracting shot would have a casting time of 3 sec (compared to Beetle Swarm).
  • Recharged Arrows would last 1 minute and have 1 sec of casting time (compared to Arcane Devotion). Ofcource, it wouldn't behave as a passive power (current state)
  • Winterstroke (one of the biggest jokes around) would cost 2-3x it's current mana cost, would have 2 sec of casting time and 45 sec cooldown (compared to Freeze)
  • Burst of Wind would have a casting time of 1.5 sec (compared to Silence and Meteor)
  • Serpent Bite would cost about 2x mana and it's DPS dmg portion would be halfed (compared to Magma Blast)
  • Etherial Arrow would have a casting time of 1.5 sec
  • Strategic Position (another joke) would cost about 50 more mana, have 0.33x it's current duration and it's effectiveness would be reduced to about 0.4x of it's current at lvl 5 (compared to Wind Wall)
  • Ensnaring Arrow would have a casting time of 1.5 sec and 2x it's current mana cost at lvl 5 (compared to Arcane Missile)
  • South Cross would have a casting time of 1 or 1.5 sec and about 1.33x it's current mana cost
  • Mind Squasher would have a casting time of 1.5 or 2 sec, 40-60 sec of cooldown and maybe increased mana cost
  • Jaw Breaker would have a casting time of 2 sec (compared to Meteor)
  • Kick would have a casting time of 1.5-2 sec and about 2-3x it's current mana cost (compared to Will Domain)
  • Back Slam would have a casting time of 1-1.5 sec
  • Howl would have a casting time of 2-3 sec and an extra 100 mana to it's cost
  • Beast Attack would have a casting time of 1.5-2 sec
  • Deafening Roar would have a casting time of 1.5-2 sec
  • Feint would have a casting time of 1 sec, 30 sec cooldown and about 2-3x it's current mana cost (compared to Will Domain)
  • Army of One would have a casting time of 2-3 sec, an extra 100 to it's current mana cost and 180 sec cooldown
  • Shield Bash would have a casting time of 1.5-2 sec, and an extra 50 mana to it's cost

Note that i couldn't match every power with a warlock analog so my estimates are also based on personal experience. The above examples are highly arguable, but they make a clear point: All players would cry loud and heavilly whine if they had their powers defined as above. Still warlocks are forced to operate under those conditions: they lack the great range, they lack heavy DPS (compared to the offensive classes), they lack defense and they lack spellcasting ability. I bet marksmen in these days are smiling in relief when they have to pvp a warlock as the chances for them to lose are close to 0. I can go on with further details about the warlock powers that seem to be absurdly defined but this would make this post even longer and tiresome. I hope the above arguments suffice to present an image of the current situation for warlocks.

Please point your comments to the essense of this thread (warlocks' casting ability) and not on the specific details of my estimation (unless ofc you heavily disagree with what i mention above). Regards

P.S.
I couldn't leave Arcane Devotion spell uncommented. IMO it is heavily broken as it works now. Having to cast it every 1 damn minute or else fail to do *anything* is too much a frustration for the mage. As i see it, it should either work like Recharged Arrows or have a duration longer than it's cooldown. But *if* at some point the developers adjust warlock spells to be competitve with those of the other clases, then AD could just become a 20 sec cs buff (lvl5) that would be quite optional to skill.
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Old 01-29-2012, 06:34 PM   #2
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With your logic Warlocks would basically become a god class over everyone else, Arcane Devotion should not become something like recharged arrows, Complaining you only have to buff 2 spells, while a Barbarian has to buff 3 to get it's "Barbarian Damage" and 1 or 2 to have any kind of defense

If all the warrior & archer spells had those kind of casting times it'd literally be impossible to attack a Warlock/warjur

running at a warlock is hard enough with slow 4-5 mass cc & DoT's but when getting close having to wait either 1.5/2seconds for roar or 1.5 seconds for kick any half rate mage could easily stop that in war or 1 on 1 encounter making it nearly impossible to try and take down a Warlock

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Old 01-29-2012, 06:37 PM   #3
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Imo: Just make arcane devotion short time cs boost in same time cut all cast times in half. btw never compare ranged spells to melee ones.
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Old 01-29-2012, 06:39 PM   #4
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I don't agree with all of this, but warlocks definitely have problems, the spell casting class having the highest mana costs and cast times being only part of their problem.
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Old 01-29-2012, 07:05 PM   #5
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1st of all: i do *not* suggest that all those spells should be nerfed the way i present them. I am presenting how they *would* look like *if* they were on the warlock tree. And by the comparisons, i present the logic by which actual current warlock skills are currently defined.

2nd: i did not post in suggestions because, well, i do not suggest *anything* (except for the very end of the post which i just couldn't help writing it - sorry for the mixup). I am trying to present my point of view about warlock's spellcasting ability imbalance compared to the rest of the classes.

Yes, i realize that comparison of ranged powers to melee ones is prone to failure. Still the hypothesis stands as those spells would be quite worse *if* they followed the warlock's powers spirit in design.

@Klutu:
Would warlocks become a god class over everyone else if they had comparable power designs with them? Besides, i do *not* complain about mages having to cast AD, i state it is absurd they are actually *forced* to do so. Again, i am *not* suggesting for the mentioned powers to be designed like this. I use the word *would* and not the word *should* intentionally. It seems you may have missed my point

@Vandaman
I agree that mana costs and casting times are only part of the problem. There can be no thread to deal with every issue though without it ending up in total chaos. In this thread i chose to just "deal" with this part of the problem
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Old 01-30-2012, 09:14 AM   #6
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Warlocks however, do have the ability to reduce this cast time, unlike other classes (except conju but u get the point), besides that, they can regen their own mana with spells, steal mana, burn mana etc.

Also, why would a warrior have to stand still 2 seconds to buff anything? They already need to cover the range to hit. And this brings us to a easy point, you can't compare classes to eachother, mages work different as archers and warriors, if warriors get thesame basic cast times as mages, I want thesame range and life steal and mana regen as mages on my warrior, don't think that would work out nice would it?

I think you need to rethink this post alot...
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Old 01-30-2012, 10:34 AM   #7
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I don't understand this thread, what's your point exactly?
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Old 01-30-2012, 10:37 AM   #8
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Nice to see some suggestions about Mages in general, I agree with a few points about cast speed dependence that needs to be changed, but I also disagree with some of yours as well, namely

Stunning Fist, it should have its cast time to be instant, its a melee stun that fails against a warriors feint/kick 9/10 times, and out ranged of course by domain/ambush. Plus having 2 stuns is sort of redundant to me, it was better as a cannot attack spell IMO.

Ensnaring arrow, please NO, it already is a bit difficult for a hunter to catch Horn buffed enemies or runners with speed buffs/spells, due to the stop to cast portion (granted it can be minimized with gear/timing, range 0+para helps but I would not want to break the flow even more so with added cs, if it is imbalanced to some, perhaps a range reduction would be better than increased cd/cost/cast instead.)

it is also one of hunters very limited 'spammable' main attacks, do you remember dual shot having increased cast time? it isn't as widely used because of the same reasoning, leaving hunters' more and more useless as time goes by.
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Old 01-30-2012, 10:53 AM   #9
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I totally disagree about Mages being the worst spellcasters. Casting spells on non-mage classes is a real mana sacrifice plus long cooldowns, while Mages have theorically infinite mana and the ability to greatly reduce cast times.
I also don't understand this kind-of comparison with the other classes CCs. Other classes don't have arcane devotion to halve their casting times and most of their damage don't come from spells anyways.

However I agree that the Warlocks - and more generally Mages - need a lot of work. It's been a very long time NGD didn't care of them : New level cap and armors made the fixed-damage spells even more obsolete, and all classes got a big Attack Speed boost while Mages got even slower with Global Cooldown. Warlocks currently have the lowest DPS of the offensive classes, and lost most of their purpose on wars due to beacons.
Now the only things that make Warlocks still competitive (and this mostly in PvP) are the very OP (and I believe bugged) DoT spells and the plethora of CCs making it easy to design lethal CC chains.

So I hope NGD will finally upgrade Mages to be compatible with the current state of the game because for me it looks like Mages are still in version 1.6.2 (and I'd even say 1.0.7...). Int/gear scalable spells would be a good start, less CCs (to finally get rid of the lethal endless chains) but more direct damage and defense for Warlocks would be nice too.
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Last edited by Shining-Scias; 01-30-2012 at 11:05 AM.
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Old 01-30-2012, 11:26 AM   #10
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Yeah...melee classes with casting time...then the ranged enemy is already 10feet away from you
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